美國 JRS 之聲
庫裡、KD、沃爾前幾賽季帶隊也不好，歐文是毒瘤還是新曼巴？
If Kyrie can't lead a team because of his win-loss record in first few years, then neither can KAT, AD, Durant, Curry, Wall ( self.nba )
如果是因為歐文職業生涯前幾年的球隊戰績差而說他沒有帶隊能力的話，那麼同樣也不能說唐斯、濃眉、杜蘭特、庫裡、沃爾有帶隊能力。
We can also look at other player's in their first two seasons who had "bad records" but people would consider them franchise players. And these guys had significantly better rosters than what Kyrie had to work with too. The 2nd best player on the Cavs in Kyrie's rookie season was 35 year-old Antawn Jamison and in his soph year, it was rookie Dion Waiters. When Kyrie was finally moderately healthy, playing 71 games in his third year, the Cavs went 33-49 with the some actual help in TT and Luol Deng ( who was only there half the season ) . 33 wins isn't great, but it improved every year and was getting there to making playoff level.
我們也可以看一些其他球員，他們在職業生涯的前兩年戰績糟糕，但是人們仍認為他們是聯盟中的基石型球員，而且他們身邊的幫手明顯比歐文更好。在歐文的菜鳥賽季，騎士陣中第二好的球員是 35 歲的安托萬 - 賈米森；當他成為一名二年級新秀的時候，第二好的球員是菜鳥賽季的迪昂 - 維特斯；到瞭歐文的第三個賽季，終於能夠保持適度健康打瞭 71 場比賽，騎士也在特裡斯坦 - 湯普森和洛爾 - 鄧（僅僅代表騎士打瞭半個賽季）的幫助下取得瞭 33-49 的戰績。33 勝並不偉大，但是戰績在逐年上升並且即將達到能夠進入季後賽的水平。
And why do people ignore Kyrie was injured 25% of the season in his first two seasons when bringing up Cleveland's record?
為什麼人們在談論歐文職業生涯前兩年騎士的戰績的時候會忽略掉他因傷缺席瞭其中 25% 的比賽呢？
Also his rookie season in 11-12 was the lockout year where they only played 66 regular season games. Comparing the wins in that season to an 82-game season doesn't make sense.
並且他的菜鳥賽季是 NBA 停擺後的縮水賽季，他們僅僅打瞭 66 場常規賽。用那個賽季的勝場數和 82 場的正常賽季勝場數相比沒有任何意義。
Anthony Davis: 27-55 ( Eric Gordon/Ryno/Vasquez ) , 34-48 ( added Jrue/Tyreke )
KAT: 29-53 ( Wiggins/Rubio/Lavine ) , 31-51
Durant: 20-62, 23-59 ( Westbrook/Jeff Green )
Curry: 26-56 ( Monta/Maggette ) , 36-46 ( Monta/David Lee )
Wall: 23-59 ( Arenas/Swaggy/Blatche ) , 20-46
其他一些被認為是基石球員的生涯前兩年戰績：
安東尼 - 戴維斯：27-55（埃裡克 - 戈登 / 萊恩 - 安德森 / 瓦斯奎茲），34-48（加入瞭朱 - 霍樂迪 / 泰瑞克 - 埃文斯）
唐斯：29-53（維金斯 / 盧比奧 / 拉文），31-51
杜蘭特：20-62，23-59（威少 / 傑夫 - 格林）
庫裡：26-56（蒙塔 - 埃利斯 / 馬蓋蒂），36-46（蒙塔 - 埃利斯 / 大衛 - 李）
沃爾：23-59（阿裡納斯 / 尼克 - 楊 / 佈拉奇），20-46
[ – ] TimberwolvesConvulsed 54 指標 16 小時前 *
All these players played in the West besides Wall who had scrubs from off the street on his team.
To be fair, Kyrie had no one either.
樓主說的所有這些球員都在西部打球，除瞭沃爾外，而後者生涯初期的隊友都是一堆垃圾。
但是說句公道話，歐文當年也沒有強力的隊友。
[ – ] Bullsdeadassynwa 934 指標 16 小時前
I guess we'll find out.
That's why he wants to leave.
等歐文走瞭我們就知道他帶隊能力究竟如何瞭。
那就是為什麼他想要離開克利夫蘭去證明自己的原因。
[ – ] [ GSW ] Andre IgoudalazzMojaveExpress 258 指標 15 小時前 *
It's not just about his record, it's about his game. We don't know if he can do anything except score because that's all he's done so far.
那不僅僅是球隊戰績的事情，而是關於他的比賽風格。我們不知道除瞭得分外歐文還能做什麼，因為這是目前為止他所做的一切
Davis: Score, rebound, defend
KAT: Score, rebound, be a stretch 5
Durant: Score, be really tall ( later developed defense )
Curry: Score ( and was an all-time great 3pt shooter even as a rook ) , pass
Wall: Facilitate, score, defend
濃眉：得分、籃板、防守
唐斯：得分、籃板、能夠拉開空間的五號位
杜蘭特：得分、身高非常出眾（之後開發出瞭防守）
庫裡：得分（新秀賽季就已經是史上最偉大的三分射手之一）、傳球
沃爾：組織、得分、防守
Kyrie has the potential to do it but it's worrisome that he put up 27.2 FGA/36 with LeBron off the floor. He's not setting his teammates up. Why? He's got Kevin Love. He's got JR and Korver. But his USG% is higher than '06 Kobe.
歐文擁有做到這些的潛力但還是讓人擔憂，在勒佈朗下場的時間裡，他平均每 36 分鐘出手 27.2 次。他並沒有組織他的隊友去得分。這是為什麼呢？他已經得到瞭凱文 - 樂福、JR- 史密斯和科沃爾，但是他的球權占有率甚至比 06 賽季的科比還要高。
As the focal point you've got to facilitate, or make up for it in another way, like being an elite defender.
作為球隊的核心，你必須要組織進攻分配球權，或者用另一種方式來彌補這些，比如成為一名精英級別的防守悍將。
[ – ] WarriorsSgtDowns 32 指標 10 小時前
Seriously people are being so arrogant and stupid about it. Just look at Kyrie with Lebron off the floor. It's more than enough to say Kyrie at his current point is not ready to be a primary option.
嚴肅地說，人們目前對歐文的看法是如此傲慢和愚蠢。還是看看歐文在詹姆斯不在場時的表現吧。這比那更有說服力，在目前階段歐文還沒有準備好成為一名帶隊的第一選擇。
[ – ] squatcat 9 指標 10 小時前
You all must have forgot that, for all of his career, Kobe drew double and triple teams. You just can't compare him with Kyrie.
你們一定都忘記瞭，在科比的整個職業生涯中，他一直吸引雙人甚至三人包夾。你不能簡單地拿他和歐文相比。
[ – ] [ MIN ] Andrew Wigginsstdebo 106 指標 13 小時前
Yeah except Kobe was a better scorer as well.
是啊，除此之外科比也是個更好的得分手。
[ – ] [ WAS ] John WallKingRikaru 228 指標 16 小時前
Dude is basically an undersized SG who is a low effort defender and doesn't make anyone around him better. The argument about Kyrie's early years is overblown, but I'm still taking all the guys you listed over him.
歐文這個傢夥基本上就是一個身材不足的得分後衛，一名低效的防守者，而且並沒有使他周圍的人變得更好。關於歐文早些年的一些爭論有些言過其實瞭，但是我仍然要把樓主列出來的球星都排在他之上。
[ – ] Lakersi_am_penis 153 指標 13 小時前
You're using Kyrie's 3rd season at age 21 but only counting the first two for everyone else?
What the hell man. In their 3rd seasons at age 21:
Durant lead the league in scoring and took OKC to 50 wins.
Davis lead the league in blocks and got 45 wins.
樓主你用歐文 21 歲時第三個賽季的表現和其他那些球員僅僅前兩年的表現做對比？
這特麼是在做什麼啊。看看你說的那些人在 21 歲時第三個賽季的表現吧：
杜蘭特得到瞭得分王的頭銜，並且率領雷霆拿到瞭 50 勝。
濃眉得到瞭蓋帽王的頭銜，並且拿到瞭 45 勝。
Those guys are obviously generational talents but still you're reaching here. KAT is hasn't even had a 3rd season, and Curry stayed much longer in college and was often injured, so Wall is the only comparison that makes sense.
很明顯那些人是一代天驕，但是樓主你確實也有些道理。唐斯甚至還沒開始他的第三個賽季，庫裡在大學裡待瞭更長時間，而且生涯早期經常受傷，所以隻有沃爾是唯一合理的比較對象。
[ – ] RaptorsAhmedF 62 指標 11 小時前
Yup - talk about cherrypicking.
是的——論巧妙選取數據的重要性。
[ – ] [ SEA ] Kevin DurantSytherus 21 指標 11 小時前
KAT is probably gonna do it in his 3rd season. Curry & Wall both missed 30+ games in season 3.
唐斯可能會在他的第三個賽季達到那些成就，而庫裡和沃爾都在他們的第三個賽季因傷錯過瞭 30 場比賽以上。
The 3rd season is the best one to judge by too. Deliberately excluding the best data we have.
用第三個賽季的表現來評判這些球員再合適不過瞭。但是樓主卻刻意去除瞭那些球員最好的數據，以此來體現歐文的優勢。
[ – ] Wizards Bandwagonlivefreeordont 77 指標 13 小時前
John Wall's supporting cast was Kirk, Yi, Baltche, Javale, Swaggy P, and Jordan Crawford. I don't know how that isn't the worst team ever assembled
約翰 - 沃爾當年的助手們可是柯克 - 辛裡奇，易建聯，佈拉奇，賈維爾 - 麥基，尼克 - 楊和喬丹 - 克勞福德。我不知道這為什麼不是有史以來最爛的團隊的。
[ – ] HeatAnCo17 335 指標 16 小時前
The main criticism on Kyrie is that he's not really a team player. Most of his scoring is iso. In the 2000s defensive dominated NBA, it might have been fine just to have one offensive star, but in an era where offense matters more than ever, I don't think Kyrie is a suitable number one option for a team. I think he doesn't get his teammates involved as much as he should. Maybe that'll change after he and LeBron separate, but from what I saw the last few years in Cleveland I don't really think he's meant to lead a team in the modern day NBA.
對歐文的主要批評來自於他並不是一名真正的團隊型球員，他的得分大部分來自於單打。在 21 世紀的頭十年，防守主導著 NBA，隊中有一名進攻型的球星還可以，但是當進攻變得比之前任何時候都重要的時候，歐文並不是帶隊的最佳人選。我認為他沒有盡可能地使他的隊友參與到進攻中來。或許當他和勒佈朗分開之後那會有所改觀，但是從我過去幾年在克利夫蘭所看到的來說，我真的認為歐文並不適合在現代的 NBA 領導一支隊伍。
[ – ] TimberwolvesTherealzdaddy 67 指標 16 小時前
I agree, I have been getting flak on the timmy sub about trade rumors for saying he's an incredible talent however I would rather develop a ball movement system in minny rather than ISO. I don't think he's very well equipped to orchestrate an offense. Well equipped however to get his own buckets.
森林狼球迷：我同意，在森林狼專區裡我由於對歐文交易持有的態度而一直受到抨擊，我認為歐文擁有不可思議的天賦，但我更寧願在明尼蘇達創造一個合理運轉球的體系而不是引進一個單打獨鬥者。我認為他並沒有足夠的能力去組織一支球隊的進攻，相反對自己如何去得分歐文倒是非常有能力。
[ – ] Rocketsrtyuuytr 102 指標 16 小時前
Wiggins is the definition of tunnel vision. 29th in assist rate among starting SF last year...
維金斯就是 " 視野狹窄 " 的定義，去年他在所有首發小前鋒的助攻榜上排第 29 名 ...
[ – ] Bullsdeadassynwa 77 指標 16 小時前
Wiggins is just as bad on defense, worse at playmaking and isnt the scorer that Kyrie is
維金斯在防守上也是一樣差，在組織方面更差並且還不是歐文那樣的得分手。
[ – ] Lakers BandwagonLiaM_CS 51 指標 15 小時前
Wiggins is younger and has a much much higher ceiling though.
但是維金斯更年輕，並且他的上限非常非常高。
[ – ] [ CLE ] LeBron Jamesleeban17 33 指標 15 小時前
I don't think he has a higher ceiling than kyrie. Kyrie 8s way too skilled and lacks effort on d. Has the tools. If kyrie can get out of tunnel vision and facilitate he can be a top 5 player
我認為維金斯的上限並不比歐文高。歐文的技巧更加熟練，隻是在防守端缺少努力。他有足夠的得分工具，如果歐文能夠擺脫 " 視野狹窄 " 的問題，為隊友創造更多的機會，他能成為前五的球員。
[ – ] Hawksjhammer19 9 指標 14 小時前
so your saying he could become james harden if he passes more?
所以樓上的意思是如果歐文多傳球的話能夠成為詹姆斯 - 哈登？
[ – ] Bullshayabusa- 167 指標 16 小時前
Wall, Durant, and Curry have proven themselves a hundred times over.
AD got one of the most injured rosters in the league to the playoffs in one of the toughest playoff races in recent memory.
KAT may not have done shit yet but he's already better than Kyrie.
沃爾、杜蘭特和庫裡都已經無數次證明自己瞭。
在近期的記憶裡，濃眉帶領擁有聯盟裡最多傷病之一的鵜鶘，經過最艱難的季後賽席位之爭闖入瞭季後賽。
唐斯可能目前為止還沒做到那些，但是他已經比歐文更強瞭。
